Governance in conversation is an irregularly published podcast by Hartger Wassink and Marco Frijlink. In this episode, Marco and Hartger talk to Marilieke Engbers. Her new book 'Loner at the top' (written together with Pim Bouwman) will be published on May 21. The book is about the unsaid, power and fallacies in the boardroom. In the conversation, Marilieke discusses the development of her new book in detail and shares her insights and experiences.